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Podcast transcript: The MPP


Transcript for The MPP, Part One: Overview of the degree and careers

AMY POTTHAST: Welcome to the Idealist Grad Schools Podcast where together we explore grad school for the public good. I'm Amy Potthast, director of graduate education programs at Idealist.

This episode of our Grad Schools Podcast is part one of a three part series looking at the Master of Public Policy degree or MPP.

On this episode I'm chatting with admissions officers of two public policy master's programs about what the public policy degree is and how it's distinct from administration, nonprofit management, and other degrees.

AMY: Welcome to the show Martha and Beth. I was hoping that you could each introduce yourself and the name of your school.

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: My name is Martha Chavez and I'm the assistant dean for academic affairs at UC Berkley's Goldman School of Public Policy.

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: My name is Beth Soboleski and I'm the director of admissions and recruiting at the Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy at the University of Michigan.

AMY: Great. Welcome to the show it's really exciting to get to talk with both of you. The first part of this podcast is devoted to what public policy is and how it's distinct from other degrees that might have similar sounding names, specifically, public administrations and public affairs, that kind of thing. But first off, I'm just going to ask generally, what is a public policy degree and is it always an MPP? Beth, can you kick off the answer to that question?

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: Sure, I'm happy to. So, no, it's not always a master of public policy degree program. In fact, sometimes the way we use degree names in this field can be a little confusing, because what we consider to be our master of public policy degree, at a few other places it's actually what they call their master's in public administration. So any prospective student should take the time and look at the curriculum, sometimes the curriculum can be very similar in differently named degree programs.

But overall, a master of public policy degree is really intended to assist students who are working in a variety of fields, but who really want to have the ability to understand sort of the political, economic, sociological aspects of public problems. So, it's a pretty broadly based degree typically.

Students will get some economics, they'll get some statistics, they'll definitely have some opportunity to hone in on their writing--because the writing that you do in the public policy field is pretty different than other fields--they'll also learn to manage in the public realm because they are quite different than managing in the private realm.

AMY: And Martha when you're talking with prospective students do you help them distinguish between public policy and other programs, like public administration or affairs?

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: You know, in the early 1900s actually is when the field of public administration was developed, and at the time the focus of public administration really wasn't in political science, it focused on organizational theory and management.

And in contrast, public policy, which is a newer field, developed in the late 1960s, actually went beyond the area of political science, management, and organization to include a broader array of disciplines such as, as Beth mentioned, economics, political science, statistics, as well as other social sciences.

So, public administration programs have, in the past, focused more on management and political science whereas public policy has become broader as a newer field.

AMY: And I think sometimes it's helpful for people in first thinking about the degree they want to get is to think about the career they want to get. So what jobs do public policy grads go on to do and is it only in the government sector or do they work in other sectors as well? Martha do you want to start this time?

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: Sure. So the field of public policy is one that I describe as being very dynamic and versatile because students gain such a strong foundation in quantitative and analytical skills. It actually opens the doors in careers in all sectors, so you get a lot of strong research tools. But our graduates go on to take positions at all levels of government, so they either become policy analysts, they might also become  staff members for political leaders and committees.

Many others because of their interest in, for example,  international policy, work for multi-lateral or multinational community based organizations, but their career trajectories are really open and varied.

And so, I would say that, you know, a degree in public policy is one that gives you a lot of different options, so I wouldn't definitely discourage anyone who, for example, wants to run for office, to get a public policy degree, because the skills you are going to learn are going to be relevant to what you're doing in any kind of arena.

AMY: And Beth from the University of Michigan Gerald Ford School of Public Policy what jobs do public policy grads go on to do?

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: One thing that we've seen lately, sort of an increase, is student's going into consulting. As particularly the federal government goes on to out source a lot of work to consulting firms, that the line between what is public and what is private becomes really blurry. And the nonprofit arena is very big, both domestically and internationally.

So, the thing that characterizes students, I think, in the field of public policy is they really have a passion to make things better. The commonality I sort of joke about is everybody wants to change the world to make it a better place and you can relate it to a lot of different fields but they want to change something to make it better.

AMY: But, for social work, we could say the same thing. For the most part it's going to look pretty different for someone with a public policy degree makes the world a better place. So, do you think you could just explain what you see as the difference there.

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: So for the students in public policy, because they understand how policy is made, they can have influence at higher levels so they can have an impact on how that policy is implemented, how that policy is originally written.

AMY: I feel like I've heard stories of people who were working in more direct service roles, and got tired of doing the same thing over and over, and nothing changed, and then wanting to see maybe a little bit more of a systemic change, it felt like the way to make an impact there was by going the policy route.

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: Yeah. One example, we have that I think is particularly helpful, is we have a lot of students who do Teach for America, so they were making things better for the students in their classroom.

But what drove them back to graduate school was understanding that they were making a change for the students in their classroom, but what they really wanted to do was make a change in how education policy was made and implemented so they could help more than just their students. So they really wanted to take it up a few notches and help a much broader range of people.

AMY: And to help their students, those same students, but for a longer period of time because otherwise when they leave their classroom they might be facing the same struggles.

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: Exactly right.

AMY: Martha can you think of any examples of a graduate from Berkley's Goldman School of Public Policy whose gone on to continue with policy in their careers and what that career path looked like?

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: Yes. The one alum that comes to mind immediately is Nonnie Collaretti and she received her master's in public policy from the Goldman School in 1994. And she started her career as a presidential management intern at the Office of Management and Budget and she was there two years, working with the Clinton administration.

And after her time in Washington, came back to California, she worked in the private sector at a law and consulting firm and then she eventually transitioned to work back in government but at the local level, working at the department of Children, Youth, and Families and eventually becoming the budget director for the San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, where she actually helped to engage stakeholders, in creating and implementing San Francisco's 6.5 Billion annual budget and also helped to develop and implement programs and policies to carry out the mayor's priorities.

And then, eventually, in September 2009, Nonnie joined the Obama administration as a political appointee. She's at the US Treasury department, where she now serves as the deputy assistant secretary for management and budget.

So, I think that it's also a testament to the strength of the public policy degree that you have the kind of skills and tools that are transferable to many different sectors, at all levels of government, in the private sector, nonprofit sector. And I think that she's a great example of what you can do with a public policy degree.

AMY: And I would imagine Beth at University of Michigan's Ford School of Public Policy that you've seen students go on in their careers as well who have done really interesting work?

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: Yeah, Amy, we have, and it's hard to pick one.

But one alum came to mind, her name is Carol Kim, she was actually back visiting the Ford School a couple of weeks ago so I had a chance to catch up with her and hear about her more recent work. But she was originally from California as well, but she came to the Ford School and got her MPP degree and went to Washington, worked for Senator Tom Dashel, as a policy advisor for a couple of years. But she wanted to go back to California; it was her home.

And so she took a job working for Los Angeles county working for one of their county supervisors overseeing health care, but she didn't have any special expertise in health care. What really helped her was, because she had that broad set of skills from the MPP degree being able to use analysis to understand a situation, and the good communication skills she developed, she was able to move into this role as a health deputy for LA county, which had a budget of four billion dollars, just for the health care portion she was working on.

But recently, interestingly enough, she transferred to a private health care company in California, which you would think--that's kind of weird going from you know, working for the government in the public sector to working in the private sector for you know, what can be viewed as the "bad guys" right?

But it was a very natural transition for her because she's working in communications and helping to improve the service provided by the health care industry, and her particular company. So, again, to echo what Martha said, the ability to move into the public and private and nonprofit and sort of move around because you have a very transferable skill-set is something we see a lot of our students doing.

AMY: Well, thank you so much, Martha, from Berkley Goldman School of Public Policy and, Beth, from Michigan's Ford School of Public Policy.

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: Bye, Martha.

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: Bye-bye.


AMY POTTHAST: Want to hear more from this interview? Check out part two on coursework and certificate programs and part three on admissions and financial aid. Find them all at idealist.org/podcasts.
Learn more about the public policy degree at the idealist grad school resource center at idealist.org/gradschool.

I'm Amy Potthast, thanks for listening. Today's show was produced with the help of our intern Millicent Zimdars. If you have enjoyed our podcast, please show your support by going to itunes and leaving a review and a rating of this podcast and others you've liked. You can also send us feedback to podcasts@idealist.org.


Transcript for The MPP: Part Two, Coursework, fieldwork, and certificates

AMY POTTHAST: Welcome to the Idealist Grad Schools Podcast where together we explore grad school for the public good. I'm Amy Potthast, director of graduate education programs at Idealist. This episode of our Grad Schools Podcast is part two of a three part series looking at the Master of Public Policy degree. On this episode I'm chatting with admissions officers of two public policy master's programs about coursework, fieldwork, and certificates. ]]


AMY: Welcome to the show Martha and Beth. I was hoping that you could each introduce yourself and the name of your school.

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: My name is Martha Chavez and I'm the assistant dean for academic affairs at UC Berkley's Goldman School of Public Policy.

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: My name is Beth Soboleski and I'm the director of admissions and recruiting at the Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy at the University of Michigan.

AMY: Great. Welcome to the show it's really exciting to get to talk to both of you. I want to start by asking a question that kind of continues the conversation we were having in part 1, which is related to what is the public policy skill set? What does a policy analyst actually do and how do your programs prepare them, like what coursework do students take? Martha would you like to start?

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: Yes. Sure, Amy.

So a lot of two year full-time master's and public policy programs have a set of core, quantitative and analytical courses that are required. So typically in the first year students will take the first and second semesters of micro-economic theory and with that they are learning about markets, and analyzing decision making of individuals and households.

They are learning how to apply these kinds of tools to the real world and analyzing real world problems; so micro-economics is a core set of courses they will take in their first year. They will also take quantitative methods courses, which are courses in statistics and applied econometrics.

And those courses will give students a great overview of how to use fundamental tools in statistical analysis to again analyze problems and develop creative solutions. So economics, statistics. Students also take a variety of other skills based courses.

So in our program at the Goldman School, we require students to take electives in what we call leadership and strategy, so learning how to be effective leaders within an organization.

They take a budgeting and political agency managing course. They also take a course on law and public policy. And the combination of all of these courses gives students a great foundation to be able to analyze policies in any arena and sector. And so that's sort of the core.

And then, within most programs you will also find team-based client projects, which I think is a really unique feature and a distinguishing feature of public policy programs where you're learning all these great tools and then you're having to work in a team environment, and also perhaps on an individual project, with a real world client.

So you're able to, you know, apply theory to practice. In our case, here at our school, it happens in the first year, we have students working on teams, addressing many many issues with real clients, students are also required to then complete a summer internship and then when they return in the second year they also have to complete another team project, but they are given a lot of flexibility in the second year to determine what they really want to focus on in terms of their policy interests or if they prefer to, you know, design a set of courses that focus more on tools.

So, the degree itself gives you a great quantitative and analytical background of courses, but then you are also able to specialize, and I think that that's something that is similar across many public policy programs.

AMY: So, Beth, does that coursework sound similar to what you offer at the Ford School of Public Policy and what kind of concentrations do students focus in at your school?

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: The way we structure our program, this is definitely something prospective students want to take a look at, is, we don't necessarily do concentrations. We vary, purposefully, we leave our coursework pretty open once you get that core set of courses. So students can really, sort of, sample from a variety of areas.

And so students can really take classes at all kinds of law and business, public health, and social work, and other places we talked about, so depending on what a student wants to do eventually and what their area of expertise they are seeking, they can really delve pretty deeply into a particular arena, without doing a dual-degree, but within that MPP program.

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: Can I mention one thing?

AMY: Yes!

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: So, actually, that's one of the unique aspects, and actually a major draw for students, because the flexibility of being able to take classes at all of the top programs at a place like UC Berkley or University of Michigan, actually is a major strength and it's also a major reason why people choose our program because they have the ability to choose and select courses from such a wide array of disciplines.

AMY: At either the Ford School or at Goldman do you have faculty or staff who are there to help advise the graduate students in determining what might be the most important classes to take? Or is it typical of some grad school experiences I've had where you are just kind of on your own because you're an adult and you figure out what to do based on your own career networking and that kind of thing?

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: So our students are assigned a faculty advisor when they come in. And then we also have academic advisers within our student and academic services department and we also have career advisers within career services so there is a number of different avenues you can go to get advice, but I think it's also very true that a lot of the best advice comes from fellow students.

So students that are in the second year of the program telling first year students you know, you've got to take this class with Professor Such-and-So because it was amazing and I learned all this great stuff, but there's definitely a lot of support available for students.

Martha had mentioned, their students, as well as our, have to do that summer internship, and I will say for a number of our students, that summer internship becomes a very important class choosing device. Because, some of them will go and do their internship and they are like, "This is great, this is exactly what I needed, but these are the skills that I didn't have that I need to do this year," and so that really helps them in choosing the classes that they are going to take as a second year student.

Other students will do the internship and say, "Oh! That wasn't at all what I thought I was going to be doing and it's really not what I want. But this is what I learned that I do want to be doing so I need to take this set of classes." So that internship between the first and second year becomes a very important device in helping students really fine tune the skills they want to get in their second year of the program.

AMY: Yeah. And that makes sense to me because, you know, at this point they've had a year of coursework where they've learned a lot of theory, they got to practice things in probably, a protected way, like in coursework and that kind of thing, but when they really test their skills and test their interest, of course that's going to be great feedback that they can use then.

So that's good that it's half-way between, too, because that way they can take advantage of the second year.

And Martha, at the Berkley Goldman School of Public Policy, is that true there as well, and do you do anything to facilitate recent alumni coming back and giving advice to current students that kind of thing? //

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: Yes. We do similar things to what Michigan does in that we have faculty advisers, we have career advisers, we have academic advisers.

Of course we also involve alumni and because our students want to be able to engage and network, they definitely leverage alumni for advice on coursework.

However, I would like to say that this issue of concentrations will vary by program. So there are some programs where they do require you to choose a concentration, but I think what happens naturally, Amy, a lot of our programs that don't require concentrations, we actually do encourage students to be strategic about the selection of courses that they take.

So they are going have to go out, after they come back in the fall of their second year and start doing their formal job searches. They are going to have to justify to employers what their area of interest and focus are.

So when we advise students we encourage them to be strategic and to think about how they are going to market themselves and that in some ways will allow them to naturally pick without having to formally say it's a concentration. And it's flexible but students are definitely given wonderful academic resources so that they can maximize their time and really leverage the degree in ways that will get them the great jobs and internships that they are looking for.

AMY: And your programs are similar in their coursework and some other kind of best practice ways, it makes me think that their is some kind of accreditation practice going on that is holding you to certain standards. Is that a good assumption to make?

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: There is a couple of different organizations and there is one in particular that does sort of accreditation. But many of the schools that people consider top schools of public policy and public affairs don't necessarily go through an accreditation process.

They are accredited as part of their university but they aren't necessarily going through an accreditation process, but a number of us do belong to organizations such as the Association for Schools of Public Policy and Management and there is a variety of sort of professional degrees.

But people pay a lot of attention to what schools, particularly successful schools are doing and so I think there is a lot of cutting edge so our students can be prepared as they possibly can, so there is not necessarily an organization overseeing it and saying you must offer X,Y, and Z classes, but really, students saying "I'm hearing from the employers that I need more skills in this area or that area."

So we look at that and say, "Oh, okay we can add this here and we can add that there so we really provide them with the best support that they can get."


AMY POTTHAST: Want to hear more from this interview? Check out part one an overview of the public policy degree and a discussion of careers and part three on admissions and financial aid. Find them all at idealist.org/podcasts.

Learn more about the public policy degree at the idealist grad school resource center at idealist.org/gradschool.

I'm Amy Potthast, thanks for listening. Today's show was produced with the help of our intern Millicent Zimdars. If you have enjoyed our podcast, please show your support by going to itunes and leaving a review and a rating of this podcast and others you've liked. You can also send us feedback to podcasts@idealist.org.


Transcript for The MPP: Part three, Admissions and financial aid.

AMY POTTHAST: Welcome to the Idealist Grad Schools Podcast where together we explore grad school for the public good. I'm Amy Potthast, director of graduate education programs at Idealist.

This episode of our Grad Schools Podcast is part three of a three part series looking at the Master of Public Policy degree.

On this episode I'm chatting with admissions officers of two public policy master's programs about admissions and financial aid.


AMY: Welcome to the show, Martha and Beth. I was hoping that you could each introduce yourself and the name of your school.

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: Yes, my name is Martha Chavez and I'm the assistant dean for academic affairs at UC Berkley's Goldman School of Public Policy.

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: My name is Beth Soboleski and I'm the director of admissions and recruiting at the Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy at the University of Michigan.

AMY: I'm just wondering when a prospective student is looking at public policy schools what are some good sources of information out there, and you know, do they just look at ranking--like in US News and World Report--like is that the best way to find out what schools are going to be the best fit for them? Martha, at University of California Berkley Goldman School of Public Policy, what's your take on that?

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: Yes, my advice to any student considering public policy or international affairs type programs is, more importantly than just is to do specific out reach to those schools who are of interest or even if you're not familiar with those programs, get a chance to go online.

There's so much information that's available online! If it's at all possible it's really beneficial for students to visit the actual campuses, talk to faculty as well as staff, talk to current students, asking them, you know, why they chose to go to those particular programs versus others, what they like best about the programs and also alumni. When you know where students are working after they've completed a program, perhaps there are things that will resonate with you more from alumni in one program than in another.

So, for any student, you want to be able to find the right program and the right fit, and so the only way to do that is to learn as much as you can, so really do a comprehensive search, that's what I would advise students to do.

AMY: And, Beth, if you meet a student who is describing their career aspirations and it might not be the best fit for the Ford School because you know the other schools in the field so well that you might I have an idea of what schools they should check out, is that true?

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: Absolutely true. There's lots to times that I have a student say to me, "I want to go into this particular area."

And if I know that that isn't something that we are particularly deep at, I might say have you looked at this school, this school, and this school, because the last thing, I think Martha would agree with me on this one, the last thing you want is to have a student who is unhappy in your program because it's not only bad for them, it's bad for you. I want a student that wants what I offer because those are the students that are going to be happy in my program, and be successful and be wonderful alums and say good things about my program in the future. So that's what I want.

AMY: I think sometimes people have this mis-impression that admissions folks are sales people and see each other from different schools, as the enemy. But in fact, I'm sure you've found great colleagues across the field.

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: Oh yeah. I have great colleagues across the country. And we regularly travel together actually. And we, you know, do graduate affairs together and is it a competition? To a certain extent, sure, but there is enough great students out there that are going to do well in our programs, so I think we are pretty supportive of one another.

AMY: So, Martha, do you think that indicates in someway that prospective students should be forthcoming and proactive in reaching out to admissions folks rather than, you know, hiding behind their application, or just sending the application without having contacted you first?

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: My view is that students should be proactive. The more they can learn about our program to make sure they are a good fit, that will then transfer to the quality of their application.

As Beth mentioned we want students who are going to be good fits with our schools, now, I actually usually read applicants blindly so I try not to look at their names because we have to be fair to every person that we read and make an admissions decision on.

AMY: And, Beth, from Michigan's Ford School of Public Policy, what do you find really distinguishes those people whose application really stands out in all the good ways from those who didn't get admitted?

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: A few things. Obviously academic preparation is important. A lot of times students when they're looking at public policy programs and they're like, "Oh, I didn't take any economics and I didn't take any statistics."

There are programs where that's going to be a bigger detriment to than others. We certainly have students coming into our programs who are, you know, history majors, and English majors, or some other majors that really haven't taken math for sometime. But their is a wide variety of people coming into the program.

So for most schools having a 3.5ish [GPA] is a nice thing, but not everybody has that, so if you didn't do as well in undergrad as you might have liked you can consider taking some classes while you're working, even at a community college, taking a statistics at a community college and being successful sends a really positive message to an admissions committee.

Most schools of public policy are looking for students who have had some work experience after college, there is a wide variation in the number of years work experience, but a couple years of work experience is going to make you a much more competitive applicant than somebody coming straight from undergraduate.

But really, I think the key for us, is being articulate about why you want to go to graduate school. If the student says to me, I want to go to graduate school because the economy is really bad out there and I can't find a job--not really a compelling reason.

Graduate school is rigorous and expensive so somebody that is coming back to graduate school because they couldn't think of a better option is not going to be a very competitive applicant. You need to be able to articulate why this makes sense for you and show that you've done, as Martha says, your research. There are a lot of schools out there. You have a lot of choices. So, why have you chosen to apply to this one? So I think those are some things students can do to set themselves apart from other applicants.

AMY: And related to Beth's point that graduate school is expensive, Martha, have you found, or have your students found that there has been a good return on their investment in their public policy degree from Berkley?

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: Yes. We live in very exciting and challenging times.

We have found here at our school, and I think it's the same at many other public policy programs, that given all of the enormous public policy changes we face, our students are in demand. And so, at the Goldman school, over the last several  years we've had close to 100 percent placement rate in terms of jobs solidified after graduation.

And students are getting phenomenal opportunities, of course, at the front end, we start very early in getting them to be strategic about their course selection, their preparation for internships, and ultimately making sure they have done all the things they need to do to solidify great jobs.

But, with regards to the return on investment, there are different avenues for reducing debt that students have to incur, in fact, many of our students at the Goldman School take on teaching assistantships that really allow students to gain significant tuition benefits, so it pays for part of their tuition, and it also gives them a salary stipend. And many of them leave with little debt because they're smart and strategic.

But definitely the great thing is if they take our advice and are able to get great internships and then ultimately get great jobs, it's a wonderful return on investment and ultimately students are happy with where they are going. And they are very successful, and despite the economy, our students have done very well.

AMY: Beth do you find the same? Have you found any interesting or creative ways that your students have funded their education at the Ford School at the University of Michigan?

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: Yeah, I mean, we have a number of partnerships with organizations, such as I mentioned Teach For America before, Peace Corps — those programs have educational benefits in addition to the great work experience, it will provide you some money for education.

So those are definitely things to think about. I will say, one of the things I hear often, is, "I went to a pretty expensive undergraduate college and I have a lot of undergraduate debt that I'm bringing with me." —Another reason, I think, to work for another couple of years because if you are that financially stressed that you aren't able to concentrate on your studies and all you can really think about is how am I going to make ends meet, maybe going back to graduate school isn't the best choice for you, because it is an investment.

And the other thing that I encourage students to think about as they apply to a number of schools and they may get fellowship offers. Don't just look at tuition, look at total cost of attendance because different schools structure their fellowship aid very differently. So look at total cost of attendance and see how much you're going to be expected to pay for your education and get a clear picture of what that is going to look like.

AMY: And I think that, in my mind, there is not a huge danger of putting off graduate school until you really need the degree and if that means investing in a career that's going to help you determine, which graduate degree is the best for you or enrich your experiential education so that when you do go back to graduate school you can be focused super-sharp like a laser.

Or so that when you get out of graduate school you have a rich rich resume beyond just the coursework and the fieldwork, that you got to take advantage of in graduate school, but that you are also backing that up with a history of work. I think all of those can only benefit somebody.

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: Yeah. I would agree with that.

School is going to be there. And sometimes students that have had a little bit more time to think about things are going to be the more competitive applicant because they really put together a plan for themselves, so that, I think, I can be really beneficial.

The thing about graduate school, in addition, to the great skills you learn is the network you create.

Martha has talked about the alums that students have accessed and that sort of thing. But you want to be prepared for that, the students you go to graduate school will become in the main part, your professional network, so be prepared to be in that network and that means being in the best place you can when you go back to graduate school I think.

AMY: I think that's a really great point to end on and I've found that you know, the cohort that you're in school with, you're going to grow together throughout your careers so it's really important to pay attention to those relationships during school. Well thank you so much, Martha, from Berkley Goldman School of Public Policy and Beth, from Michigan's Ford School of Public Policy.

BETH SOBOLESKI, UMICH: Bye Martha.

MARTHA CHAVEZ, UC BERKELEY: Bye-bye.


AMY POTTHAST: Want to hear more from this interview? Check out part one an overview of the public policy degree and a discussion of careers and part two coursework and certificate programs. Find them all at Idealist.org/Podcast.

Learn more about the public policy degree at the idealist grad school resource center at idealist.org/gradschool.

I'm Amy Potthast, thanks for listening. Today's show was produced with the help of our intern Millicent Zimdars. If you have enjoyed our podcast, please show your support by going to itunes and leaving a review and a rating of this podcast and others you've liked. You can also send us feedback to podcasts@idealist.org. //